Technical Forums» Technical / Performance» Me again
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since:  Posts:  |
Me again |
Fri 04 Jan 2013 11:58:24 AM |
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Hi all
After reading through some of the different post relating to my job at hand, i have seen that if i change my head gasket and skim the head (if i can due to the racing regulations i face) that the cams will need to be advanced. Is this correct? If so how is that done, will a timing tool be needed? Thanks Pic of car... |
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Doom » CMF Member Adelaide Australia Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Fri 04 Jan 2013 01:21:23 PM |
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I have no idea but cool pic lol
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Fri 04 Jan 2013 07:23:26 PM |
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looks good glen :)
i always file a flat onto the cam dowel http://micra.com.au/community/message.php?messageid=57741 and then time the inlet to make contact with the bucket about 15 deg btdc, and the exh cam 15 deg atdc (1.3 cams) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 05 Jan 2013 12:49:42 AM |
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Cheers Frank
I will be honest, that is a little above my head at mo,(total newbie to this car only built the car a few months back) not to sure what dowels you talking about at mo, will have a closer look later/tomorrow, also would if be possible to put up the rules of the motorsport iam involved in to see if you can possibly see if there is any other ways i can get more out of it. Thanks again Glen sorry in advance for the more questions to follow....... |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 05 Jan 2013 01:41:33 AM |
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the dowels in that link i posted mate (arrowed here) and ask away :)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 01:09:33 AM |
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Hi and thanks again
Ok can see which dowels you mean now, not to sure i will need to do that with the minimal amount i can probably skim the head to the rules (will ask more on this im sure). Think i have problems before i get to that stage anyways :( After taking the head off to unvail the nasty HG underneath i noticed the crank pulley has moved (see pic) now also doest seem to be TDC, any help much appreciated Thanks Glen |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 01:12:20 AM |
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Pic of notches
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 02:00:44 AM |
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the 2nd from the left is tdc eh glen (5.0.5.10.15.20)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 02:36:55 AM |
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yeah that where i set it bud, you can see the dab of paint where it should be, was only after took head off noticed it had moved some how, not to sure how this could be done thought you would need a bit of force to move it, wouldnt of done it cos of the top sprockets would it (while lifting head off)
Am i screwed.... thanks pic of timing marks i set... |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 03:32:35 AM |
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dont worry about timing the cams back up glen, as long as the lobes on cyl 2 and 3 are pointing at the edge of the cap bolt like this
(can you see the 2 red marks ? they,re a bit faint !) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 03:38:55 AM |
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so as long as cams are in this position when every thing goes back together(next week i hope) things should be ok?, what about the crank to i re-set that back to 0 then put chains back on or leave it as it is and just make sure the cams are in the correct position?
Still trying to get ma head around how i have moved it.... |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 03:53:08 AM |
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there are different colour links on the chain for lining up mate (if they,re still visible) but to reposition the lower chain you would need to remove the sump and side cover !.
just set it on tdc and line the cams as that pic ^ you should have 5 links "inside" the 2 dots ( the lobes on cyl 2 and 3 may be reversed, left to right, when the dots are lined up) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 05:58:26 AM |
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cheers bud, When setting back to TDC should i go anti-clockwise a bit?
Looking at my pics i was probably a link out anyways looking at you diagram (see pic) the dowels in the cams do they have to be in the position shown above too? Got quite a few pics before taken head off if needed to see more, just have to excuse me where i have gone mad a little with the missus bingo dabber haha Glen |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 06:57:53 AM |
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best to always turn it forwards/clockwise glen, and the sprockets are the same so the dowels will always be in that position eh.
and get some 1.3 cams in :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 07:23:09 AM |
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When turning the crank will the chains/idle sprocket not want to move? 1.3 cams- wish we were allowed :)
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 07:31:05 AM |
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Glenj WROTE: "When turning the crank will the chains/idle sprocket not want to move? " yes mate, but you need the slack to be where the tensioners run tho eh, and a headskim will increase the slack in the lower chain. are you going for a 1.5mm skim ? |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 08:42:01 AM |
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Just got my hands on the new rule book, dont look like i can touch it. Cylinder head thickness no less than 121m- is the rule, manual says head is 121.1-.3 so not to sure what can take off machine shop monday!, might not touch it if not needed now iv mess this timing up.
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 08:42:02 AM |
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Just got my hands on the new rule book, dont look like i can touch it. Cylinder head thickness no less than 121m- is the rule, manual says head is 121.1-.3 so not to sure what can take off machine shop monday!, might not touch it if not needed now iv mess this timing up.
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 08:54:18 AM |
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hmm, block skim maybe ? :)
all the more reason to dial the cams in then (dowel filing) is it oval racing glen ? |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 06 Jan 2013 09:53:14 AM |
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Yeah just have to be careful im not braking rules ( i know rules are meant to be broken), yeah Autograss racing Micra was added to the class 1 last year.
Will keep you posted, cheers for all your help so far |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 12 Jan 2013 03:30:59 AM |
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Quick update and few more questions :)
Picked cylinder head up today, done maximum skim that the motorsport rules would allow 0.25m not much to shout about, cleaned head up and new seals ect... Going to start tomorrow to suck in and see Haynes says silcone to be used on side of head, what silcone to be used?, new head set looks like it has that part on the new HG. Should i re-postion TDC when head is on or before? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 12 Jan 2013 03:47:03 AM |
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i always smear a light coat of basic silicone sealer on both sides glen, it comes apart very cleanly then.
and you may as well set it on tdc first, but it does,nt really matter :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 12 Jan 2013 07:32:38 AM |
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Cheers frank will keep you posted
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 04:14:04 AM |
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quick update.....
Sat. prepped garage, tools, head,block and back and forth for things sun. managed to get head on after much debating about no. 8 head bolt (felt strange when tightening by hand). snow started to come down fast and it was fooking freezing :) when placing cams in for a quick look, it says in my bible dowels will be at 9oclock inlet and 12 exhaust, looking at my pics this is where i took them off, after setting TDC should i now go ahead and fit the cams like this, put chains on via franks diagram and things should be ok or is there anything else to think of? Cheers again |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 05:21:55 AM |
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it would be worth checking your opening/closing events glen, i use the notch in the top of the bucket to check that it spins freely, the i turn the engine till the lobe makes contact, and record the degrees on the crank pulley notches as the exhust closes and inlet opens
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 08:11:27 AM |
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What do you mean the notch in top of bucket bud? The more i get into this the more i wish i would of put a transplant in, Ah well to far in now and need to know this stuff anyways
would it be possible to upload videos on here or go via you tube, i could put back together and video it when turning by hand and give me you opinion... Also there is a little dowel on the side of the head behind the idler sprocket does this fit into the little bracket thingy behind sprockets (seems to move around) |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 08:27:13 AM |
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that dowel locates the idler mount eh glen
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 08:28:25 AM |
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and this notch
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 08:42:37 AM |
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yeah that dowel thanks so locate that and bolt up, where do i find that ^
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Tue 15 Jan 2013 08:52:31 AM |
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Glenj WROTE: where do i find that ^" turn cyl #1 inlet and exhaust bucket till you can access the notches easily, then use a screwdriver to twist the bucket while turning the crank, and the exact moment the bucket is,nt free to twist is when the lobe makes contact eh :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Thu 17 Jan 2013 04:09:25 AM |
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ok cheers bud, took me a cpl of nights looking and looking to see what you meant but with you now
Ok gonna get back together and see where iam at Best to have oil in when turning by hand? Cheers |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Thu 17 Jan 2013 04:38:31 AM |
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Glenj WROTE: Best to have oil in when turning by hand? Cheers" it wont make a lot of difference glen, best check your clearances too eh :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Thu 17 Jan 2013 07:19:24 AM |
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^ you mean where lobes contact? what should they be
To much to take in for my peanut brain :) |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Thu 17 Jan 2013 07:48:14 AM |
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Glenj WROTE: "^ you mean where lobes contact? what should they be To much to take in for my peanut brain :)" aye the base circle clearance, set the lobe at the top and check the gap underneath with feelers. they should be .25 to .4mm ish, but i would strive for .2mm on 1.0 cams personally mate |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Fri 18 Jan 2013 11:15:30 PM |
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Cheers Bud
Hope this bloody weather picks up now, cant help me with that can ya? :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 03:14:23 AM |
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Set inlet cam
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 03:15:01 AM |
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exhaust
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 03:20:23 AM |
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After setting cams as above and to manual, i am now struggling getting the chain on the sprockets.
I did get the chain on just like the diagram with the golden links on the mating marks, but all the slack was in the middle of the sprockets (should of taken a pic) i didnt think this was right so tried to get the slack on tensioner side, with this now i cant line the links up with the marks and struggling get the chain on with the slack on tensioner side Any ideas |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 03:34:32 AM |
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that inlet looks too advanced to me glen ?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 03:47:18 AM |
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Can i just turn it back a touch now? or will this mess the valves up
I thought it would kick back to 9oclock postion when tightened caps up |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 04:22:09 AM |
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it looks like it needs pulling back a tooth to me mate, do a pic from further away :) (sprockets + lobes)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 04:33:05 AM |
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Yeah thats what it seemed even just half a tooth maybe, i was right to start again and trying get the slack on the tensioner side?
Will i be able just to move it now its bolted down if needed Will get more pics up tomorrow |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 04:39:43 AM |
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aye, just turn the cam with a 22mm open end, and re-hook the chain back on eh
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 10:57:28 PM |
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few photos before i do anything...
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 10:57:56 PM |
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...
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 10:58:13 PM |
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..
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 20 Jan 2013 10:58:45 PM |
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sorry dont know how to put them in 1 message :)
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 21 Jan 2013 07:19:45 AM |
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double post
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 21 Jan 2013 07:19:48 AM |
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a pic with the chain fitted, like this glen
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 21 Jan 2013 09:32:41 AM |
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Ok will try to get it back on, when i did get the chain on tho the slack was in the middle of the sprockets, when getting the slack on the tensioner side i cant get the chain on or when i put it the on sprocket i cant get the sprocket to line up with the dowel..
Does it matter that the gold links line up with the mating marks? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 21 Jan 2013 07:07:27 PM |
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no dont worry about the coloured links mate, or the slack
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 04:42:00 AM |
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Double post lol?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 04:42:29 AM |
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..
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 04:42:52 AM |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 04:43:33 AM |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 04:44:23 AM |
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Let me know if you need any more just struggling for light at the mo.
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 04:53:26 AM |
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yes the sprockets look fine glen, where are the lobs pointing now ?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 05:12:44 AM |
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same place as before, i have not moved anything, i wanted get your opinion from the pics with chain on. The pics above show the lobes position
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 05:14:08 AM |
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looking at your pic with the chain on, my lobes seem a tad lower on the cap bolt than yours
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 05:17:59 AM |
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pointing towards the middle of the bolts glen ?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 05:26:51 AM |
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Tried messing with photos to see if you can see it better...
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 05:40:36 AM |
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they look a bit retarded eh (the inlet will be more so when the idler takes up the slack)
i would file the dowels and advance them personally |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 05:55:53 AM |
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sorry to be a pain in the arse;) how would i set it back to norm or advance as your saying
Am i not far away here or am i million miles away? What advantage do you gain by filing dowels- |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 06:03:50 AM |
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your setting looks correct mate, but the slack/worn chains are making the cams run retarded (and a headskim makes it worse).
filing the dowels advances them back to the original factory settings |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 06:46:02 AM |
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is this why the slack is on top or is this always the case with these
with the filing of the dowels i am just wary of the rulings, looking at doing bigger events this year and they are scrutineered before hand with a fine tooth comb theres no tensioner on at the mo will that not sort the slack even mo |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 06:58:36 AM |
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the tensioner will tighten the chain when its running mate, you have to twist/ratchet the tensioner plunger back, then fit the 2 bolts, then push it fully back to release the ratchet (else it will rattle every time you startup)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 07:06:20 AM |
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so looking at the chain in my pics, is there way to much slack going on or is this normal, only done citroen ax before and that was SIMPLES
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 07:10:36 AM |
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nah, thats your average 15yrs of slack mate, you can probably turn the crank about 4 notches on the pulley without a cam moving
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 07:32:50 AM |
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new chain help or they costly just thinking while its off or will it be new sprockets the lot then
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 07:49:02 AM |
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the sprockets dont tend to wear glen, as you can see i have a few serviceable spare ones :)
2 new chains would help (£100 iirc), but you can advance the cams by setting the idler in a different position. for instance, if you set the "CG" stamped in the idler @ 6 o,clock instead of 12 o,clock, the cams will move half a tooth (because the idler sprockets are 23t and 36t) |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 07:51:03 AM |
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forgot the pic :)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 08:07:01 AM |
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wow how many? :) maybe i will look into a new upper chain, really dont wanna be messing else where my brain wont take it
you reckon advancing is the way to go? will i see a improvement performance wise also This is a distant hope but this will be on the rolling road once done |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 08:14:03 AM |
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you would need to check your valve event timings first really mate (post number 3 ^) but with your scrutineering limitations you need to optimise the stock settings, blueprinting eh :)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 08:40:40 AM |
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ye thats the 1.....cheers bud thanks for your time so far
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 23 Jan 2013 11:50:17 AM |
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Glenj WROTE: "ye thats the 1.....cheers bud thanks for your time so far" no probs mate :) you only have to give the crank 1 turn then reposition the cams tho, that will advance the cams half a tooth (15 deg) and should restore the 16/0/0/16 factory settings. and dont forget to retard the dizzy to suit |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 04:28:03 AM |
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Update
Managed to get back together today, chain on properly, tensioner on properly (couple of attempts) After turning by hand numerous times- the first time i turned 360 the marks were way off, after several more turning the marks seemed to sort them selves out (this normal) The way it is set now is a 5 below (the first notch), not moved of this now after more checking- this what you are saying by retarded? Checked the clearance of the 1s open at this setting (didnt manage do them all) approx 0.25 Any thoughts? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 04:34:45 AM |
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.25mm is ok eh glen, and the coloured links wont line up every time mate, i think you would have to turn the engine 46 times (because of the 36 and 23 teeth arrangement on the idler)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 05:11:23 AM |
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Sorry i meant the marks on the crank in relation with cams, first time round they were no where near, then seemed to alignisssh themselves after another turn..
any thoughts on why is goes to below tdc when cam sprockets are in correct position now - this retarded? will it run like spanners until high revs tho? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 05:32:30 AM |
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the cam lobes and crank pulley will line up every 720 deg mate (2 turns)
if the pulley is on the 1st notch (5 deg after tdc), then the cams need dialing in to get the power restored to stock |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 05:39:11 AM |
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the pulley is on the notch after TDC (the last notch) this the same as ^
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 05:41:59 AM |
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yeh, the notch on the left :)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 05:46:43 AM |
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can i do the idler sprocket like you mentioned put it at 6oClock, dont really wanna go down the filling route
How would it run now as it is? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 05:57:03 AM |
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it should have a powerband higher than stock glen (you would have to rev its nuts off) but i think you lose hp when they,re retarded too.
the cam sprockets have 23 teeth and they run half crank speed, so i calculate that to 31 deg/tooth, so the 6 o,clock/12 o,clock thingy will advance them half a tooth (15.5 deg) which may be too much ? you need to take some readings on the opening/closing events tbh, then decide |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 06:05:17 AM |
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tbh thats what we do, into second gear and foot down for 2 mins screaming its tits off
What the best way to do these readings, for opening do the lobes need to be pointing at 12oclock to check the clearance! What do i look for on the closing part? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 06:15:20 AM |
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you need to spin the bucket while slowly turning the crank glen (near tdc) and when the lobe makes contact with the exh bucket is the opening time, and when the inlet lobe loses contact with the inlet bucket is the inlet closing time (the bucket will spin easily if there,s no contact, and wont spin if the lobe is pushing against it eh).
i set my 1.3 cams with about 30 deg of overlap (all 4 valves slightly open), 15 deg either side of tdc, your 1.0 cams will probably have about half as much. you could set the idler at 3 o,clock or 9 o,clock if need be eh |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 06:27:16 AM |
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Ok thanks again bud, will look into that tomorrow and let you know how i get on
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 27 Jan 2013 06:35:26 AM |
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np :) you need to test the different settings on a dyno ideally eh glen, you could probably gain 5 to 10 hp, which is a lot when you only have 50ish to start with eh :)
the 4 stroke karters twist the gear on the crank to optimise the valve timing and gain seconds/lap. and thats with a single camshaft with their limitations |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 12:03:55 AM |
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Ok today...
Set to TDC & Checked No 1 in 0.25-0.30 No 1 Ex 0.30 No 2 Ex 0.30 Says in manual to 1 full rotation- this seems to set it back to normal an above... i did it 180 notches were at 6oClock No 2 Ex 0.30 No 3 In 0.25-0.30 No 4 In 0.25-0.30 No 4 Ex 0.35 Any thought on these, also in your post above you mention looking at what degrees the pulley is at when opening/closing accurs- Bit lost on this not to sure what you mean... |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 12:26:29 AM |
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you have to check the valve clearances while the lobe is pointing upwards glen. (ie, turn the engine each time)
and i use the notches on the pulley to gauge the opening and closing events (5, 10, 15 and 20 deg before tdc, and 5 after then just measure the 10, 15 and 20 ) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 03:19:54 AM |
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Im lost here Frank, I need valve clearance for dummies book!
The figures above have i done it wrong there? totally lost with how you are matching up with notches on pulley... am i just looking at which cylinders are neally open/closed around TDC (cant see how you do it for them all) M8 if i am a idiot just let me know hahahah |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 03:30:47 AM |
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heh, the valve clearances are a separate issue to the timing glen, as long as the clearances are in spec then you can check when the valves are about to open and close.
the timing you need to check for is the exact moment that the valve clearance drops to zero (where the lobe makes contact onto the bucket) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 03:52:06 AM |
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When setting towards TDC the only ones i could see about to close where 3 inlet 20-25 degrees and 4 ex 20degrees closed...
The ones open where similar to the figures above 0.25/30 |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 03:58:18 AM |
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the clearance drops to zero soon after the lobe gets to 3 o,clock and 9 o,clock mate, there is a ramp at the sides of the lobe that gradually makes contact, and the only way you can tell is by checking if the bucket spins freely or not
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 04:49:59 AM |
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Yeah understand that bud, what didnt see and dont understand is how do you match it up with the crank pulley to see the degrees this happens, especially if have to do this for each lobe. The only ones i could see where the ones i mentioned above.
^^^^^^am i completely missing the point here |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 05:04:28 AM |
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you,re just checking cyl 1 eh glen, and cyl 1 exh valves are almost closed @ tdc, and cyl 1 inlet valves are about to open
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Mon 28 Jan 2013 05:16:07 AM |
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Wow ureka think im with ya now Frank :) cancel the transplant for now, will look tomorrowish & let you know
cheers for teaching a numpty :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 30 Jan 2013 03:18:15 AM |
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^ wait a minute :) Right when setting toTDC the buckets spin freely, after 1 turn the EX buckets stops to spin when notches are around 6oClock position, inlet lobe pointing around 1oClock, continuing to turn and the EX. releases around 10degrees after TDC notch, Inlet still spins but not freely |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 30 Jan 2013 03:29:03 AM |
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we just need the exh closing and inlet opening events really glen, and if the buckets are free to spin @ tdc then there is no overlap (which is what nissan intended on their 18/0/0/18 valve timing settings)
ideally you want the clearances to be zero on all 4 valves @ tdc, so how many notches on the crank pulley when the clearance drops to zero mate ? |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 30 Jan 2013 03:59:23 AM |
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ok cheers didnt think i was right
When saying make contact, is it as soon as the side of the ramp touches or when flush on the bucket (just seemed the buckets could still spin until lobe pointed at it) do i just feel a drag on the bucket? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Wed 30 Jan 2013 04:03:20 AM |
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Glenj WROTE: "ok cheers didnt think i was right When saying make contact, is it as soon as the side of the ramp touches or when flush on the bucket (just seemed the buckets could still spin until lobe pointed at it) do i just feel a drag on the bucket?" use a 3 thou feeler if its easier mate, catch the crank pulley reading when the feeler becomes free or becomes trapped |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 04:59:22 AM |
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Ok tried to look for the opening/closing, but me thinks im rather way out here or there is way to much slack in the chain
when moving the crank quite a bit the cams dont really move so i can't gauge when the lobe touches via notches/clearance drops to zero, when the cams do finally move the pulley notches are no where near. Any thoughts Cheers |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 05:11:04 AM |
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you have to always turn the crank clockwise glen, and have you fitted the tensioner and released the ratchet inside, to lock it ?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 05:38:04 AM |
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yeah always have been bud, yeah tensioner on and released the ratchet
referring to what you mentioned above about the crank could move about 4 notches before cams would move, could it just be this or sound like way to much slack |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 05:47:00 AM |
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4 notches is pretty normal mate, and fit a thin feeler gauge under the exh cam and slowly turn the engine from about 40 deg before tdc, and you will feel it release the feeler at about tdc, then slip the feeler under the inlet cam and it should bite/trap the feeler at about 30 deg after tdc ?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 06:15:20 AM |
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ok will look at this, would the exh lobes not be pointing around 12oClock here tho?
when at TDC the lobes are at 9 & 3ish just seems i move the crank quite a bit before the exh lobe ramp starts to meet the bucket |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 06:36:02 AM |
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your lobes should be here @ tdc mate
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 07:17:55 AM |
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now im lost when at TDC cam sprockets are at 9 and 12 how them lobes pointing there or is this on next stroke?
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 07:37:33 AM |
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its the other tdc innit mate
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 07:49:29 AM |
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want it in this position ^ ? this is the position i thought you meant? if not around 20 deg getting confused with the TDC here sorry bud
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 08:04:34 AM |
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nah this one mate, fit the feeler under the exh cam and slowly turn the crank from about 40 deg btdc, and it will release about tdc (make a note of when it releases).
then do the inlet cam |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 08:15:01 AM |
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cheers bud will try again tomorrow, can i put the 3 thou feeler on shim/bucket and completely turn the lobe on to it as rotate to this position this ok?
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 08:18:24 AM |
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yes mate, use a thin feeler or else spin the bucket :)
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 08:34:09 AM |
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cheers buddy
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sat 02 Feb 2013 10:35:10 PM |
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ok tried this earlier,
Inlet gripped the 0.015 feeler around 20deg before TDC mark (your saying it should be after?) Exh did not let go of ^ feeler until way after the TDC mark maybe 30/40 deg |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 04:26:31 AM |
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if thats 15 thou glen (inches) ? then its too big a feeler mate
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 04:49:46 AM |
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smallest iv got bud.. i had to go and buy the lower set
0.015=15thou? do they do an even small feeler guage set? |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 05:00:39 AM |
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hmm, .015mm is mega thin mate ! is it metric or imperial ?
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 05:02:47 AM |
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yeah it is bud...not to sure to be honest bought it from local car shop
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 05:14:54 AM |
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ahh, sounds ok then mate :)
so it looks like the cams are running only a bit retarded eh. if you advanced them 10 deg, the inlet would bite @ 30, and the exh would bite @ 25ish eh |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 05:27:51 AM |
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what do you suggest bud, im thinking stick it back together see how it goes :) would i able to do changes after or would it fook it up?
off topic i know (or shall i make a new topic) have you got any pics of the injector seals, machine shop took inlet off so i dont know what came off it, the doughnut ones are still there Cheers |
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 05:35:37 AM |
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yes see how it runs eh glen, doing the 12 o,clock to 6 o,clock/half a tooth advance is easy to do (just turn the engine 360, and reset the cams as normal) but to advance 3 o,clock or 9 o,clock would mean removing the timing cover and sump, to reset the lower chain.
and this thread is already big/slow loading eh :) |
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Glenj » CMF Member manchester United Kingdom Member since: Posts: |
Re: Me again |
Sun 03 Feb 2013 05:38:21 AM |
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lol yeah cheers buddy
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