Quad TB

i'm planning to chop the intake manifold, use the bottom and connect it to a bike quad TB...

my question is.... with some modifications... will the car running properly using quad TB setup without aftermarket computer?

you will need management of some description to get it to run properly,

basic rules of an engine is that the balance of fuel and air have to be right

quad throttles allow a stack more air into the engine and you have to match that air with fuel, the factory management won't be expecting all that extra air

also for factory management to work you need to have the air flow meter in there somewhere, so unless the quads are enclosed with an AFM at the intake its not going to work to well

yeh... i am planning to cut the stock manifold, use silicon coupler to bike quads, the put them inside plenum and use the AFM in the plenum entry.... just dont know where to start...

anyway, what is this GREDDY blue emanage? piggyback? is it enough to do ignition timing, fuel mngmnt, and remove/raised the rev limit?

do you think CG13 is safe to rev to 7500rpm with stock internal? i might be getting skyline fuel pump... and probably fuel press regulator...

from memory there was a post along these lines ... I think using honda 600 TB's..... there are a coupla sites around where someone has just just this on a toyota engine. double check everything as you go, google and ebay are great research tools..... its amazing how many companies have where you can download their instruction books and stuff.

It's quite a lot of work to do only to place them in a common plenum and rig up a compromised system just to make it work. The gains wont be anywhere as good as a properly setup system, plus you will have to fit a piggyback system at the very least to make it drive properly, which intself is a bit of a compromise due to the way the standard ecu is setup with regard to fuelling.

Standard engines are ok but they don't bode well past 7500rpm due to balancing issues. Also, if the engine has covered high miles, you will get a lot more blowby at high rpms due to ring wear and ring flex, so be prepared to fit a catch can and monitor oil levels regularly.....(currently where I am now with my current engine build).

What is your current engine spec out of interest and what sort of power are you wanting to acheive and on what budget?

thx SSUK...

i just got the car 3 weeks ago... just starting to do my research atm and planning... also weighing my option whether i should chuck another engine or do up this one.... i dont need too much power, just need at least 90kw atw :P preferably still NA...

the car just got a custom Cold Air intake kit at the moment, i dont want to put anything else until i decide what i want to do.

will rebuilding the engine of CG13DE, knife edging the crankshaft and balanced it solve the issue to rev past 7500? say 8500rpm? is it worth building up the CG13DE?

my original option was SR16VE (no way im gonna get N1 spec... too rare) but even the normal SR16 is very rare, i find some in US but havent made any decision yet coz the cost seems too high...

second option are NA SR20DE or even SR20VE (which is more rare)... my mate just finished putting 4AGE 20V at the EP starlet at the moment in our garage. i'm looking to do something similar...

the the 3rd option was rebuilding the CG13DE... this occur after i bought the car. i'm surprised how good the CG13DE are despite some of the issues i found on the net (timing chain snapped before its intended to, and coz its interference setup, piston will bend the valve) input shaft leak, and piston ring. apart from that, the CG13DE was fantastic... im surprised that this in only 55kw at the engine... im bringing it to dyno in few weeks to see what it does at the wheel...

the reason i asked about quads is that if im gonna run after market computer, then mind as well run quads setup. but i honestly have no experience in tuning one... may have to look for someone that can tune it properly. i am still looking for the ECU wiring diagram too.

you wouldn't be able to run an emanage. and if you somehow bodgy-ly wired it up, it wouldnt' work very well, if at all, purely because you would still have to be using an afm... kind of defeating the purpose of going to quads. going to aftermarket management would also give you the option of going external coil packs. ditching the shit standard micra setup.

p.s for the manifold to work properly you simply can't just chop the plenum of. the outer 2 runners are slightly angled downwards and require to be cut right back at the fuel rail mounts and new runner extenions to be welded on for you to be able to clamp any kind of silicon onto it. check out >>

http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cars004zv2.jpg

also at the end of my post here:
http://www.micra.com.au/community/message.php?messageid=26840

for some pics/ideas.

mate, thx heaps for the tips and info... i really appreciate it. ur project look awesome btw... i wish i have the budget like that...

i look at the manifold last night and i see what you mean... :S

how about microtech lt8s running parallel with stock ECU? will it work? or do i have to get the whole standalone?

another thing is with ppl who convert to 1.6 engine or SR20DE, what ECU do you use? can u use stock SR20DE ECU?

you don't need to run the lt8s in parallel with the stock ecu. there's nothing good about the stock ecu anyway... if you have a good tuner you can get the same driveability and reliability as the stock one. if your going to convert engines into your car you can use whatever computer and wiring from that car to run in your car... if you can figure out what does what, and wire in the appropriate power/ground/fuel pump/signal wires into your existing car. the question is, if your going to go to all the effort of swapping in other engines, why the hell would you use a stock computer in the first place? if its to save money, then don't bother swapping anything, as trying to put something into an engine bay that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place is always gonna cost plenty of money no matter what you do. spend your money on the engine you have, get a set of decent cams, extractors, the lightest flywheel you can find, and a fuel system, combined with a good suspension system and you will have yourself a fun car to drive.

very good point mate.... :) i will definitely think about it... as i said, im doing my research atm, and estimating all the cost... thx for the info tho... its really got me thinking...

You get more power out of a motor by getting more air in so you get more fuel to burn and get more bang. You then have to get rid of the waste gas efficiently so as not to hamper this process. You're unlikely to get a huge benefit from quads unless you've got more aggressive cams and port your head to allow better flow otherwise this restriction to airflow will be the limiting factor. Otherwise it's far easier and cheaper to use a bigger throttle body on the stock intake which will overcome alot of the intake restriction in a stock car - as you've been finding out on your GA15 throttle body thread!

It may be possible to run an engine with an AFM running off an airbox attached to quads but I'd be considering the complexities of the whole setup on a cost-benefit basis. Have a look at my NA build for probably the only quad throttle body Micra in Oz and one of few in the world outside of Japan. I'm using a Motec M48 controlling fuel by throttle position sensor. There is a benefit in running quads but it's not earth shattering - I got around an extra 10-15 HP at higher revs in a worked motor. I don't know and I dont think anyone has bothered to test the benefit of quads on a stock CG13 motor.

(Is that your red 350Z? Like the body kit. Red is a very rare colour for a 350!)

nicely put mate... i agree... i guess i will give quad a miss... unless i fully worked the motor...

i got so many plans going on in my heads at the moment and gathering as much info as i can... and constructing input from you, turbo march-rolling shell, SSUK, smidge and fred are much appreciated...

thx for the comment on the Zed... yes, i think red is quite rare, but white is even more rare... i wanted white(only 2003), ended up getting red as my number plate "MERAH" means 'RED' in indonesian...

the body kit is only when i do track work... i used that coz i have bigger DIY power steering, DIY oil cooler and some other ducting that needed extra airflow... apart from that, that bumper are very impractical and too low for daily....

i love your red micra (2 of my favourite colour is Red and White) and i have seen thru all you pages and videos! keep up the good work!... its a very nice engine build and mated with nice driving! *respect*

Sorry to stray a little off topic, but what specification has your engine been built to Nissanmania?

Compression ratio, cam durations etc? and at what rpm does peak torque and peak power occur at?

11:1 compression, cams have 300 degree duration, 10mm lift.
Peak HP at 7000RPM peak torque at around 6000rpm. Changes a bit with adjusting cam timing and exhaust manifold.

do you mind me asking how much it cost to build to your spec roughly?

not that i will go that far, but just give me an idea or indication on prices in NA race engine build for CG13DE...

From memory around $5K but to be precise I'd need to dig up receipts.

Are you still running on the standard head?

Maximum torque is where I would expect it to be for that setup, although I would expect to see maximum power closer to 8000rpm.....gas flow appears to be a problem at higher rpm, have you run the car without the fabricated airbox as a comparison?

Still running the factory head, just ported. Why, are there any other options? The next development excercise could be to build a head with bigger intake valves. Possible but costly.

I haven't tested it without the air-box but it would be simpler to just test for any vacuum ("negative boost") in the air-box to determine if there was any restriction. I would say it's unlikely given the increase in cross sectional area in airflow from stock but till worth testing. Also aiming to get fresh air feed to lower the intake air temperature. (Interestingly the Nismo Micra Cup cars don't bother with an airbox.) Also prefer to have one well-flowing K+N airfilter than 4 dodgy foam filters attached to the trumpets.

Interesting, to what degree has the head been ported? From experience there's head jobs and head jobs, depending on what specification of engine you are building dictates what the head will need to flow. 11:1 compression, 300deg cams is a very agressive, and if I may say so, impressive specification, so the head will need to breath significantly more, especially on the exhaust size.

The standard heads have been rumoured to be good upto 130bhp in standard form but I have nothing to back that up with, only 4th or 5th hand information handed down from ex Nissan Motorsport engineers from the rally days back in the mid 1990's. I do know that they never bothered with larger valves, just port work and valve seat work, I can't confirm if they got into anti-reversion cuts on valves or thinned and cutback valve stems....perhaps but it would only be speculation. It is however something I would warrant on my next engine build to help get as much torque out of the engine as possible.

Just for information sake, and these figures to vary from place to place, the power figures for the Group A Micra Kitcars was 155bhp at 7950rpm and 142Nm torque at 6000rpm, running 11.1:1 compression on the CG13DE 1275cc engine. There were other build variants of this engine running 160bhp or above using the CGA3 crank and modified internals to make a 1312cc unit. These days people prefer to use the whole CGA3 engine being 1348cc and go for similar power but get a broader torque band, usually running somewhere between 11:1 and 12:1 static compression ratio......still not quite as impressive as the 180ps Japan N1 cars but they are nuts out there ;)

There was fairly extensive porting on the head and valve seat. Valve stems weren't touched. Funnily enough with a 4:2:1 exhaust manifold peak power was at 7,800 RPM but with new Impul 4:1 one developed a dip in power at the upper reaches. (see the photo album under my profile).

It would be handy to be working with people who have done the development work already on the CG13 but they're thin on the ground over here. It's good to know what's achievable so I've got something to aim for. As a development excercise I'm going to give trial some other less aggressive cams - 773 cams sourced from Mathew Humphris with 264 degrees duration and 9.09mm lift so I'll keep you posted on this.

Ah, that's interesting.....now I've learned something, I was wondering what the specs were on the 773 grinds. Peter Vaughan, who did those cams isn't much of a talker and doesn't like revealing his cam profiles. He is however very good at what he does on the CG13/CGA3 engines. I don't suppose you have the timings do you?

I'm currently about to retire this years engine, which was on the standard head, standard compression, BTB Group A exhaust and a standard inlet running some of his cams.....the NME ones, which are 254deg duration and 8.35mm lift, timings of 17/57/57/17....they peak around 6800rpm on that setup. It's not an impressive spec, but while I was saving for the new engine I thought I'd see what performance can be obtained from the standard engine.

I would be very interested to know what the cams are like, as I was giving them some thought for my next high compression engine.

Your choice of cams with 264 deg. duration and 9.09 lift is a good choice. the nismo N1 cars had a lift of 9.5 (i believe). but sayig that the cars did use flat top pistons and as i was told buy an engineer from japan, they were a very differnt beast to what we have seen in australia. personally i have found them perfect for short course racing, ie: motorkhana. they give a great torque range through 4500rpm to 6500rpm, however this does flaten out, and even falls when past 7000rpm. this does not bother me, becauce racing doesnt always mean u sit on the red line. saying that i found imporvements in replacing the valve springs. IF YOU CAN, get yr hands on nismo valve springs it is an incredible. with the replacement of the timing chain AND valve springs, you will notice an increse in responsiveness, allowing yr car to be happily jabbed at 5500 and pull it was through to 7000rpm.

by the way, nissanmania, your throttle body kit. who from and were from and how much was that kit???? im currently running a grinded out stock intake with sr20 throttle body. but what u have would be awsome!

I would love to pull apart or hear from someone who has pulled apart a Nismo March Cup car motor to see what their build specs are. 180ps from a NA CG13 sounds unachievable but has been done. I could only dream of that figure but I'll keep trying!

The cams arrived last week and should be in over the next few weeks. The specs are 26/58/58/17.

The quads are from Jenvey in the UK and cost close to $2K! Be the first on your block with a set....! They would be overkill unless your motor is sucking in lots of air. Make a lovely soundtrack though.

Oh but what an overkill that would be! haha, the induction would sound incredible. remember the March Cup k11 that was listed in NZ for sale? well i had my brother look at it, as he lives there. hes not a mechanic, but has a fair amount of knowledge. he described the car as being very well built, seam welding through the entire body. he also was able to start the car. he mentioned it idle quite high, but believed it sounded not much different to mine. my only confussion about the amount of power they produce is, was the recorded 180ps at the fly wheel? it seems almost impossible. especially after my bro took the part number of the nismo computer that was fitted in this N1 cup car, after researching, it turns out that this computer same computer can be fitted to a mildy modified micra. and i have NEARLY all the parts nismo offered, just short the Q/throtle bodies and pistons.

how can 180ps be achieved in NA form, especially with the computer they seem to be running? i have a solid 92hp atm at the wheels and (which would most likely tip 100hp at the fly) my car is fairly worked.

anyway, the inlet manifold jenvey supply, is it ready to bolt to the head, by this i mean, does the stud pattern on the manifold need changing? it looks like a very neat kit. adding to that, the bosch injectors u have to use, do u know what size they are?

I would say 180ps would be at the flywheel, though this is still a pretty healthy figure, probably achieved at stratospheric rpm. I don't think the Cup cars would get this figure as they were designed ,as stated above, for power and torque below 7000rpm. 150ps more likely. Their cam profile may hold the key?

The Jenvey manifold is a straight bolt on item though the throttle bodies are generic items and need a little fiddling/grinding to fit and work. Used 2nd hand Nissan Primera injectors ex UK.

26/58/58/17, interesting choice of cam. Seems as though Pete wanted to keep the torque high without moving the powerband too high up. The exhaust cam is essentially the same as the NME profile....just 10deg more advance/duration on the inlet cam.

I wonder if these were designed with the standard inlet manifold in mind, will certainly be interesting to see how they perform.....I expect the car will be VERY driveable, the 254deg NME cams deliver more torque across the whole rev range when compared to the standard cams, unless of coarse you fit them with a standard exhaust, then the car is totally gutless.....but who would lol!